"There Dev's are full of it, ps3 has 7 cpu's and 360 with 3 cpu. The 360 has 3 cores each core has 2 threads. The ps3 has 1 core and 7x spe not 7 cpus more like 1 core 7 threads one used for the xmb and the other used for blue ray security, so they only have access to 1 core and 5 threads that is the cell that is why there not matching 360 its a fact that 3 general purpose cores in the 360 can do more when threading. not a fanboy just a dev"

"Actually Demon5500 you don't really know what you're talking about. Of course, the developers discussion was in lamens terms and they had no clue about the SPUs anyway - but the SPUs should very much be considered as individual CPUs, NOT threads. The SPUs are the secret to the visuals seen in Killzone 2 and Uncharted 2 - they are MUCH faster than you think. And many developers are over-looking them, thinking in exactly the same old-fashioned way that you are. Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Sony Santa Monica, Guerrilla Games, have all seen MASSIVE gains by moving GPU operations to the SPUs - calculations that most CPUs can't handle. Obv. terminal Reality was all talk, no results. "

"I work with both console Dev kits I think I know what the cell and Xenon chip set has going on under there hoods. And Spe's are not Cpu's they are DSP based processors, with 16kb branch instructions with one main power pc core 2 threads are not used so only 5 are usable, And yes I am a were of the tricks killzone 2 Devs use but even those tricks will be Suppressed bye the new 360 Dev kit. Branching graphic instruction on a Spe was a good why to off load graphics from the weak GPU, but its not a patch on Xenon's new branching instruction sets, The next wave of 360 games will look better then killzone 2 with ease."

"That's good for you Demon5500, but you're coming off as ignorant. I have a constant relationship with video game developers, an established knowledge of the platforms, and especially the work performed on Cell and its SPUs. If you really do think SPUs are threads, then you're going to have question yourself when you start to learn what first-party developers are actually performing on them. I suggest you read Naughty Dog and Insomniac conference notes and what they have moved to SPUs. I'm afraid you're not going to see the kind of deferred rendering seen in Killzone 2 on the Xbox 360. You're also not going to see anything as close and visually impressive as Uncharted 2 - most people's game of E3. This is ONLY possible because of the SPUs - and it's not all talk - you can see it VERY clearly in results NOW. You need to think differently, or you're going to be as confused as Terminal Reality were. 'In their keynote, Sony Santa Monica explained that the SPUs aren't actually coprocessors but are full general purpose processors that can handle code directly lifted from the PPU.' Read up on GOWIII's developers use of SPUs here: http://www.gamezine.co.uk/news/game-types/action/gow-iii-devs-spus-are-faster-than-you-think-$1286294.htm"

"Well said Deep ( UK). Demon5500 you sure your not a programmer at valve ? Its the same bull they pedal that comes outta your gob."

"Just to make this clear - since the ps3's component outputs at 540p - the test compares a native 720p picture to a digitally downscaled and then upscaled 720p picture. So that's obviously not how the game is actually rendered on anyone's tv. And no - the ps3 ghost busters "engine" does not output 540p."

"No deferred rendering on the 360? Are you joking? The Unreal 3 engine uses deferred rendering, lots of 360 titles use deferred rendering excellently for years now."

"You can wow us with your technical knowledge guys, most of which is probably a large pile of stinky bull shit, but you cannot ever counter the visual evidence. You can throw a bunch of jargon at me in an attempt to show how the 'new 360 dev kit eats babies and rapes PS3' all you want, it doesn't change the fact that year after year the most stunningly brilliant games are released on Sony's console. No 360 game has been capable of the visual fidelity shown year after year. As for this case, it remains to be seen how this will affect the console. As the game just released, its interesting how an analysis like this was released so quickly. Regardless, third party titles have fallen by the way side for the past years. Only the most dedicated developers are capable of producing a third party title with enough features to rival Sony's first party offering. Sadly, Terminal Reality may not be a talented enough bunch of do this. "

"Well said Deep (UK). If only Valve could finally see the truth :)"

"Endymion, read what I said: "I'm afraid you're not going to see the kind of deferred rendering SEEN IN KILLZONE 2 on the Xbox 360." There has not been any deferred rendering as impressive as is seen in Killzone 2 in an Xbox 360 title. The secret to the deferred rendering are the SPUs. Simples."

"fenris - that was the case for The Lens of Truth footage and screenshots. The Ruliweb footage is of higher quality. And no, the PS3 does not output at 540p - however, the game is RENDERED at 540p. "

"Where is this "Ruliweb" footage? I tried the link and I just got connected to some Korean website. The pictures where the 540 output was "confirmed" seem to be the ones from Lens of Truth."

"wow this game LOOKS like crap"

"Deep - "however, the game is RENDERED at 540p." Nods. But only if you select "component" for output on the system. (It just boogles my mind that no one noticed that this is how these "comparisons" must have been done all along.)"

"Deep, you talk a good game but you really don't know what you are talking about. Although neither you or Demon5500 aren't completely correct in your analogies, he/she is by far more correct than you are. You both sound like fanboys (somewhat) however he's a fanboy with a little more knowledge while you appear to be more on the line of defending something that you don't fully understand."

"If the PS3 version is 960 by 540 (518400 pixels) and the Xbox 360 version is 1280 by 720 (921600 pixels), then the PS3 version's resolution is 56.25% that of the XBox 360's, not 75%."

"hey deep! i would love to have u on my friends list m8. u seem to know what ur talking about unlike most retards lol. my psn id is: a101k47 add me if u like and mention that its u :)"

"So Fenris, you're saying that the HDMI output is true 720p rendered? Just confused...and so disappointed."

"I'm sorry ShoGun, but I know exactly what I'm talking about. Nor am I a fanboy - I care not for preferring one system to another. SPUs are NOT the same as a CPU, however, it is much better to think of them as indivudal CPUs with more defined tasks. Talking about them as threads is completely underestimating them. Moreover, nor do I need to prove this in words, but simply point to the results now in video games where the developers have openly provided their tech notes to the public. Developer notes you can read are from Insomniac, Naughty Dog and Sony Santa Monica. You can read the latter after this link: http://www.tilander.org/aurora/comp/gdc2009_Tilander_Filippov_SPU.pdf"

"fenris, the game is rendered at the resolution above regardless of being outputted in component or HDMI. Of course, you won't get as clear an image with component, but the image will still be natively rendered at the same resolution."

"Demon5500 is BANG on the money. He's absolutely RIGHT. Deep(UK) you sound like an ignorant sony fanboy with absolutely no real life hands on knowledge of the architecture of both machines. I've also worked with both, and NO I'm not with Valve you moron. The reason more devs don't come out and tell it how it is because they don't want to upset sony.... FULL STOP. Valve have had the balls to call it how it is, because they're financially secure they are not intimidated by sony. I’ve heard endless hot air about the ps3 cell processors, get a grip look at the reality, the 360 dominates the ps3 on comparable games on the following fronts... texture resolution post processing frame rate frame rate at 1080p Sorry, but if you look at games like killzone2, all you’ll see here is a talented dev team with loads of money and time. They’ve used the same old tried and tested graphical techniques that have been used in games since the day of the ps1 ! yes that’s right, the ps1... all they’ve done is have the time to layer these techniques, with more modern methods to produce what they have. The 360 version, given the same team with the same money would of looked better, given that the tech in the 360 is superior. Sorry sony fanboys but it’s true... the ps3 is NOT the wonder machine sony has lead you to believe."

"Well, that's the assumption they're going by - that the game renders internally the output you select when choosing component. I mean, it's not a revelation that the ps3 outputs that resolution on component - it's what you select. But most games have a different internal resolution - whether it is higher or lower, also on the xbox. In other words, the box simply outputs somewhere around 540 on component after scaling. So I'm simply not convinced that's the internal resolution. Other games also show exactly the same behaviour - looking fairly blocky on sd(or upscaled with analogue to 720p) but completely different on hdmi. I.e., this test makes the point that the 360 can output almost twice the resolution on analogue component, and get a better picture, not that the game runs at half the resolution (say, because of hardware limitations, like lots of people insist). Of course - if someone did a test with the output on hdmi and got the same result, that would be interesting. But I don't believe that will be what happens."

"I think it's funny that they come out and say the PS3 has 7 processors and the 360 has 3. It's this type of thinking that gives us these crappy looking games. The 360 has one CPU with 3 cores and 2 threads per core. This is NOT the same as having 3 processors. And the same goes for the PS3's CPU and SPU's. If these systems had 7 and 3 CPU's, we'd be getting completely blown away by the graphics every game as well as our energy bills. My whole reasoning for bringing this up isn't about the number of processors and what not, but it's more about the simple fact that he says yeah one has more than the other so we can do more because of that. Well, I am NOT putting down the PS3 because I know it is more powerful and what can be done with those SPU's, but I think it's funny that it's almost the same as these people on these Windows commercials saying ahhh this Core 2 Duo is slower then this Pentium Dual Core. Uh.... so? Speed idn't everything, just like the number of cores compared to the number of SPU's matters. Certain things can be done better with certain setups. The PS3's CPU and SPU's have a better time making up for the lack of graphic ability of the GPU compared to the CPU/GPU in the 360."

"I'm not a dev myself but it's clear to me from talking to my friends that have worked on both platforms that whilst they always approach PS3 development with great expectations early on, it's complex architecture usually throws a spanner in the works towards the end of the project and compromises have to be made. Even Rockstar had to lower the resolution for the PS3 version of GTA4 although the overall look was pretty similar apart from a slightly blurry look. Killzone 2 looks pretty good but given the record setting budget, time in development and amount of staff working on the project they were practically working with a blank cheque, even then they still didn't find time to fit in a story and used too many duplicate enemies. Uncharted 2 is looking fantastic but we'll have to wait and see if any compromises have to be made."

"Ok education time, The Xenon has 3 symmetrical cores, each core has 2 hardware threads per core, VMX-128 vector unit per core as well as a 128 VMX-128 registers per hardware thread and a whole 1 MB L2 cache, The cell has 1 PowerPC-base Core 1 VMX vector 7 SPE and a 512KB L2 cache, but the problem comes from the 16kb available for each spe, Sony are smart with how there 1st party Dev there code, they use every part of the ps3, its sort of like a graphics work station, Gpu of loads branch instructions to any spe available when it starts to get bogged down, which is all really good but very hard to do you have to know whats going on with in the the code. With the new Xbox Dev kit they are no longer using the unreal engine as the main engine any more I cant say much more NDA but the unreal engine is out dated Microsoft has a new engine now And it will allow them to also branch instructions to the GPU which has a 256 GB/s memory bandwidth. This will boost graphic way beyond What has been seen in game like killzone and uncharted, HD texture streaming is now available on 360 for the first time and is very easy to work with that is why squire and kojima are on board. So Spe are like cpu cores but not as powerful as a real core and the same goes for the threads in the 360 they are like cpu's as well same clock speed. I ant a fanboy I like both console's but you just cant say xbox360 has 3 cpu and ps3 has 7 cos that is just lies. "

"Look. I understand I came over a BIT strong. I also COMPLETELY agree that what is said above about the X360 having 3 CPUs and the PS3 having 7CPUs is not only a gross simplification, it's FALSE. Moreover, if that's how the team approached the SPUs no wonder they've come up with massive problems. Yes, with the SPUs you have to chop up your code, in a way that's not needed on the 360, but it can have great gains. Of course money and incentive of trying to find the solutions has something to do with it, but it's also talent. Naughty Dog, I feel, is one of the most talented developers around and one I have a good relationship with. They're all very open of how they push lots of their GPU code to the SPUs and having Sony's ICE Team internally, they can integrate this knowledge in the Edge Tools which are available to third parties. Yes, it costs more, yes it's more effort - but the simple fact is - it's possible. Moreover, the PS3 is the one meant to be playing catch-up to the 360 being one year behind, not the other way around Demon5500. That developers have been able to achieve this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ANz6YJPbjY a year before 360 devs a surely testament to the possibilities of the system. "

"Morac, you are absolutely right. We were at first thrown a little by the 3/4 steps cited on the images. The resolution is indeed HALF of the 360 game. And Demon5500, would you be willing to talk more about Microsoft's new engine? "

"@ DEEP I agree with you 100% Naughty Dog are the best team this gen for pushing the ps3. The Sony's ICE Team and Edge Tools are amazing, if it was not for these guys working there butts of the ps3 would have bombed, in the graphics a long time ago, I can tell you Nvidia should not make console GPU's and I do not think they will get one in the next gen, Thanks to ken, his vision was that cell would do gpu work from the start he was right all along, I bit he has a hand in ps4. I can not talk much about the 360 new Dev tools I am under NDA like all most all teams, But I can say Microsoft have really got there stuff up and running, unreal engine 3 had been modified to work on console but it did not take advantage of key features, That has held back 360 in the last few months, But Microsoft has been very busy working there own engine out a lot like Sony, The 360 has never really been used this way, it was all ways sort of a pc to most Dev's but its not, The 360 has a huge amount of memory bandwidth 278.4 GB ps3 I think is 48 GB/s " not starting fan wars just the truth" The cell is a lot more Optimised for Gpu branch instructions, but lacks the memory. You have to look at the Xenon GPU for the fact that it uses a streaming API it can emulate new DirectX codes, but it must be done at the cost of internal memory, this is way Microsoft's new Dev kits have 1 gig of ram so they can Dev there code with out errors, The Gpu is also very advanced the Unified shader architecture can do 48 billion shader operations per second, But this is were streaming Hd textures come into play If you are a Dev or tech head you can figure out were this is going I just cant say much more. I know that Microsoft will really start blowing people away but it is a lot harder to Dev the 360 this way but it will give people who own the console a lot more years of graphic Fidelity, The console war has not started yet:) just think a new graphics edge and a new way to play just like a whole new console release?"

"But Deep, you don't come off a BIT strong, you come off a BIT wrong! Processors, be it the core PPE or the SPE, run THREADS! One SPE is disabled for yields so down to 7, one SPE is reserved for OS, down to 6, the Xenon cores run 2 threads each, multiply that by 3 for the number of cores and it can achieve how many threads? You look just plain foolish for even trying to argue that these two processors aren't running anything like equivalent instructions. You keep posting links to dev slides that showcase their process. One funny one, the GOW3 one, tries to equivocate the SPE with a full processor and that is just laughable. If an SPE were a general purpose processor it would be able to run something resembling branching code and IT CAN'T, you are going to screw up your engine just TRYING to do that. The SPEs need a steady stream of data that they can apply the same process to and this is why they are suited to assist with light rendering, but to turn this around and say that deferred renders of any quality are only possible with the Cell's SPEs is beyond stupid. It is the only way to achieve that kind of quality WITH THE CELL. Do not confuse your opinion on the quality of KillZone 2's lighting for anything resembling fact because there are scores and scores of 360 titles with excellent lights that use deferred rendering perfectly sans SPE. Utilizing the SPEs properly on the PS3 gives you an engine that is in the 360's league, it doesn't blow it out of the water for either performance or results, it only makes it competitive in the same ballpark. And what is up with this site's selected addition of replies? I made at least three replies yesterday that this site just chose to eat, probably because I took apart Deep's misinformation and sliced it up into tiny bite sized chunks for being as erroneous as it was."

"Endymion, name one 360 title that has 230 light sources in one scene http://www.gamezine.co.uk/news/game-types/shooter/the-most-light-sources-in-one-killzone-2-scene---$1267347$1264900.htm You'll find that not only do most journalists agree, but technical websites, 3D rendering magazines, etc, believe the deferred rending seen in Killzone 2 is second to none and a massive step up from anything seen elsewhere. The GOW document isn't laughable, because they prove it in their performance. What they're simply trying to do is to make other developers not underestimate them - of course they deal with data very differently to a full CPU, but they are a lot faster than most think they are. If it's not out of the 360's league, then why haven't we seen the results yet? The Xbox 360 is a year ahead of the PlayStation 3 and the dev kit has been in the hands of developers a year longer, yet the exclusive PS3 titles are seeing much bigger gains."

"Endymion, we currently have a bug where the code entered is not accepted, despite being right. We're working on it, but please make sure your comment has gone through before moving on. We hope nothing you wrote will take too much effort to re-type. Cheers."

"Wow I see insights are being exchanged back and forth between Deep (UK) and others, I think we completely lost the plot of what originally the thread was about, its about Terminal Reality and its Ghostbusters game….its not about which system is powerful….FOR ME just buy the game to the system of your choice if you have the 3 system then just get the system you would like to play it in.. Don’t get me wrong guys I enjoyed the “friendly” banter, although I am not a developer or even in lined in the computer industry but I know more than enough about how difficult it is to develop for a system….for me what im going to say might seem harsh but if a developer is always saying the PS3 is so difficult to develop for and rather not waste time in unlocking its capabilities THEN I guess he shouldn’t even be called a developer/programmer because how come other developers like Guerrilla games, Naughty Dog, Quantic Dream, Team ICO, Kojima productions and many more has unlocked PS3’s potential and we don’t even often hear them brag about it…. I just got to say this but John Carmack has always voiced his problems with the PS3 (which was to me kinda strange why he is so open about it when he didn’t even developed that many games for the PS3 yet) I know this is gonna offend more than a few but if he is such a great programmer then how come others have showed off PS3s potential and how come he kept on complaining even though he is not developing any games for the PS3 (that I know of)…. To me its funny that we hear other complain about how difficult it is to program for the PS3 and at the same time those who utilized PS3’s potential doesn’t even voice out their achievements, its like all we hear is complaining and they haven’t even fully tried it yet…. To the developers out there don't knock it till you've tried it…."

"Hey Deep? I am not trying to be antagonistic. However you are really starting to show your fanboy feathers. In the same kind of manner that PS3 fans want to claim that more storage of uncompressed data on BluRay is superior, you are now attempting to claim that more light sources is superior for rendering a scene, and point to KillZone 2's more-than-usual light sources as proof of this superiority. But as erroneous as your presumption is, you are wrong here as well. Deep, I give you Microsoft Game Studios' CRACKDOWN, from the year 2007, which features over 3,000 light sources in a single scene. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/crackdown-as-youve-never-seen-it-before-article Crackdown 2 promises even more technical goodness than the first game, but just so you don't think I am falling into your numbers-game, you should be aware that ONE light source can actually work better, and look superior, than one THOUSAND light sources if it is done well. Many times an artist will use less than what is available, not due to lack of ability but in order to draw a better, more appropriate, and even beautiful scene. Read that article though, it clearly demonstrates how Crackdown, a game almost two years old, is "superior" with respect to lighting than the more recent KillZone 2--and not just due to the number of lights."

"What I find annoying is how gaming sites such as Gamespot give both versions the same score (7.5) when one version is clearly inferior just because they don't want to anger the hyper sensitive PS3 loyalists. just rate the game on what it is!"

"You're all missing a point or two here: 1. The Xbox 360 still has an abysmal failure rate. (And you always think it won't happen to you, until it does) 2. The Xbox 360 makes it sound like someone is flying a jet in a circle above your home (my father remarked that he couldn't even hear the movie over the console when we first watched a dvd on it) 3. The pay-to-play online system of the Xbox 360 has had an extremely negative impact on game releases. Awesome games will get blasted by xbox live fanboys because they don't have co-op campaigns and they need a justification for paying for an inferior online experience (and i'm referring to connection,ability to handle large amounts of traffic, etc. microsoft has done a nice job with friends and that side of it). In any case, by arguing about the technical specifications of the systems, you're all just masturbating. No one will be satisfied, and no one learns things. The 360, and this is important - FOR ME - Was a horrible experience and I'm just now starting to feel clean again, two years later."

"@ObviousMan You should really get your facts before you take a dig at one company, One has stood up and taken the challenge to fix the "RROD" problem with out it costing the consumer more then 5$, But one party has denied that the console has problems "YLOD" and still makes the consumer pay $150+ to get it repaired. And live is a lot more stable in its direction it is going over PSN, as I have seen projects from one company that will charge you more then live a year to uses and I cant justify that over the value Live offers. PSN will have a charge in the end, Its only a matter of time, But most consumers will be blind to the fact in till they have to pay, brand loyalty. :) "

"Im a dev too but just wanna said STFU"